What About the Loss of Greek as the Language of the Church?

Very interesting about Muratori. On the other hand the loss of Latin as the language of the Church has created a harmful discontinuity in the Catholic tradition. It encourages other kinds of innovation and leads to a loss of theological concord. https://t.co/sXHS94mChf

— eburke (@JamesWHankins1) July 20, 2021

The theological divide between the Latins and the Greeks could have been avoided if the Latins had just retained Greek. Instead, they chose not to act as adults and communicate with charity in spite of linguistic differences, although the Greeks probably had the better of the argument.

What Language for the Liturgy?

America: The liturgy was made for all people and languages, not just Latin. by Joseph P. Amar

Should Latin be retained at all, at least for those peoples who speak Romance languages? And even then, just for certain unchangeable parts of the Mass, like the Creed or the Our Father?

Are current translations of the Roman Missal sufficiently hieratic?

Liturgy in the "Vernacular"?

Fr. Christopher Mannion

And a rsponse at NLM:

Fr. Hunwicke: The Beevy Emm, alive and well at Queens

There was one outstanding lecture: a real tour de force by John Caldwell on the Psalter. He made clear that the Masoretic traditions are entitled to no assumed priority over those of Greek or Latin Christianity, particularly with regard to the numeration of the Psalms. (There sometimes appears to be a rather shamefaced attitude to the Vulgate (and Septuagint) numeration; this is completely unnecessary. 'Christianity' and 'Jamnian' Judaism are both descended from a first-century rupture; the unconscious assumption that the Masoretic texts are 'authentic' in a way that Christian texts are not fails to remember the Dead Sea scrolls, not to mention Margaret Barker. This is not a pedantic detail; it goes right to the essential point of difference between Synagogue Judaism and Sacrificial Christianity.)

Study Day with the Plainsong & Medieval Music Society

English Translation of the Psalter

For Latins --- what is available?

Magnificat, Give Us This Day: do they use the same English translation of the Psalms?

I don't think Word Among Us provides a version of the Divine Office for laity. I don't think Living With Christ does, either.

Then there is the Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham, which uses a version of the Coverdale translation.

How good is the Grail translation for private devotion and singing? (I should ask, is it a faithful translation of Scripture? And how about the Revised Grail Psalms?)


Revised Grail Psalms

I need to do some research on Psalm tones too...

A Reform of the Reform?

The version of Fr. Peter M.J. Stravinskas: Liturgical Vision vs. Liturgical Visions: Vatican II, Pope Benedict XVI, Cardinal Sarah
Why I believe that the loss of the sense of the sacred is the primary reason why we have lost millions of Catholics to faithful worship.

Much of it a Latin traditionalist could agree with.

Over and above that, for a universal Church (in an age of high mobility), the ability to worship in a common language is most important. How many of you have gone on a business trip to Tokyo, for example, finding yourself attending Sunday Mass in Japanese (which I presume most of you do not know)?

So why should the Japanese have to suffer through Latin just so that a few tourists and legal residents can benefit from hearing something familiar?

Also, the patriarchate of Rome is not the Universal Church. And there is no reason why the patriarchate of Rome should have just one language, when it has jurisdiction over such a disparate group of ethnic groups and cultures. Latin could be a lingua franca for clerics, or bishops, but all of the faithful?

There should have been a greater move towards inculturation for peoples who did not speak Latin or Latin-derived language/Romance language, and this should have been part of the initial missionary effort. (To the Germanic tribes, for example.) Even if the project to develop a native hieratic language took some time as the local Churches discerned for those gifted with the intellectual ability and calling to undertake such a task, it still should have been a priority prominent in the minds of missionary bishops.

What is the significance of kneeling? It is at one and the same time the posture of humility and adoration. Benedict was fond of quoting St. Augustine who declared: “Let no one receive who has not first adored.” The external sign of kneeling helps to safeguard the sacrality of the action of receiving. Admittedly, the Churches of the East (both Catholic and Orthodox) receive standing, however, so much else in their liturgies emphasizes the transcendent that there is little danger of obscuring that dimension.

One can ask whether in the Latin psyche adoration has been separated from liturgical worship due to the rise of Latin "Eucharistic devotion."

Local Liturgical Translations

Cardinal Sarah may be admirable in his defense of the prerogatives of the CDW and a traditional understanding of the authority and role of the Roman Curia, but is he right? Meanwhile even if it is proper to entrust local liturgical translations to local ordinaries, is now the right time for it? And is there a way to embrace liturgical translations without accepting modern nationalism and its fruits? That is what the recognition of national episcopal conferences does, at least -- they are not approving different local translations for a region, but a single uniform one for that region, regardless of the diversity of peoples and cultures in that region.

This problem should have been forestalled in the first millenium, had the Latins and Franks permitted the official use of liturgical texts translated from Latin into hieratic versions of the local tongues.

Liturgy and Hieratic Language

Pray Tell: Viewpoint: On Praying the Psalms on Behalf of the World by Msgr. M. Francis Mannion

Not bad, but where is the Roman Catholic equivalent to Christ in the Psalms by Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon?

Found this today: A Psalter for Prayer: An Adaptation of the Classic Miles Coverdale Translation Augmented by Prayers and Instructional Material Drawn From Church Slavonic and Other Orthodox

How is the translation? Sufficiently Anglicanish? What's a good resource for learning (post-)Elizabethan English?

Wiki: Early Modern English

Is it integral to monastic or religious life as such?

the use of liturgical texts in Greek, Latin, Church Slavonic,or Syriac/Aramaic? How much of Coptic is intelligible to the average Coptic Christian?

Is it the case that the use of such languages is not essential to monastic life and to most forms of religious life -- except those religious communities that seek to specialize in learning Greek/Latin/etc. for the sake of study, knowing the roots of their theological tradition, and theological dialogue. Indeed, to have certain orders or religious houses dedicated to the study of important texts in their original languages would be of great service to the Church, I would think. For them, to be so familiar with the language that they are able to pray (and converse) in those languages would be an ideal standard, and this could be a component of their identity or charism.

Related to the Problem of Orthodox Youth Losing their Faith

Just saw this last night: Is It Time to Do Away with Liturgical Greek? by Andrew F. Estocin (pravmir)

An Issue Central to Inculturation

Kyrie Eleison

Archimandrite Ephrem Lash has reposed in the Lord.

His website.

A Young Person's Guide to Religion

OTRF 2011 4-Fr. Ephrem Lash from James Hyndman on Vimeo.

Archimandrite Ephrem (Lash) on the translation of church services

Eastern Christian Books: "A Bible Study Followed by a Meal": Ephrem Lash on the Eucharist

Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great
The Akathist Hymn to the Mother of God
In which the author laments the state of English language liturgical books

Slavonic Traditionalists

Opus Publicum: Some Thoughts on Church Slavonic in the Liturgy (via NLM)

Naturally Latin Traditionalists would be interested in the views expressed here.

I think Church Slavonic (or Latin) should be retained to the degree that it can be rendered easily intelligible to the faithful; this is unlikely to be the case for the entirety of the liturgy.

In mission territories that do not have a cultural or linguistic tie to Church Slavonic, a hieratic version of the vernacular should be developed or adapted from another source.

The Spirit of the "Innovators"

Pray Tell: Archbishop John Quinn in Interview

What are your thoughts on liturgical translations?

I think, first of all, I would raise the question why we need translations. Why is it not possible to have liturgical books fashioned in the country itself? Now I realize that in a world of rapid travel there have to be some common formulations that are used, and that certainly should be kept in mind. But I don’t see why, for example, the prayers of the Mass (e.g., the Collect) have to be a translation of a Roman prayer. They could be formulated in the language of the country. English speakers could prepare their own prayers. If we have to have translations, they should be done and approved by the English-speaking episcopates themselves.

What do you think of our new 2011 missal translation? What are its strengths and weaknesses?

Well I myself, and it is my personal view, think it is not English as we use it. It’s too complicated, it’s very difficult to speak. People can’t understand what is being said, I don’t think. I don’t know that is has any strengths. I find it hard to think of its strengths.

My idea of translation is that you take something in a text and say it the way we say it in English, not that you try to retain the style and structure and flavor of another language.

Accepting Fr. Bouyer for What He Says

And not trying to turn him into a Latin traditionalist.

John Pepino teaches at Our Lady of Guadalupe Semnary; he probably either is a Latin traditionalists or a sympathizer, but he does not use Bouyer to serve an agenda regarding what language should be used for the Roman rite, recognizing that Fr. Bouyer was not a Latin absolutist (nor a vernacular absolutist):

For Bouyer, it goes without saying that the instructional parts of the Mass (the lessons) must be proclaimed in such a way as to be understood of the people. Yet he immediately adds that one should not thereby suppose that the vernacular should be put in just anywhere, or that such an introduction would suffice to make the Mass perfectly comprehensible.In the first place there has to be a standard Latin text that can be used as it is: Luther and his Swedish followers held their services in Latin in university settings (for the benefit of candidates to the ministry in particular), and Cranmer "produced a standard edition of his prayer book in traditional Latin." Furthermore the abandonment of Latin would be a severe loss for priests as it would alienate them from all the sources of Western Christian culture. But even at the parish level, the following must be maintained in Latin according to Bouyer: first, the great Latin Eucharistic Prayer, so that we may follow the very terms used by our ancestors in the faith; secondly, the five stable parts of the ordinary, which everybody can learn by heart and sing (Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus-Benedictus, Agnus Dei). Above all one ought not, under pretext of avoiding archaism, impose a straitjacket of linguistic contemporariness. The liturgy our Lord and the Apostles knew was in Aramaic--their vernacular--but also in Hebrew, their sacred language. This phobia of Latin seems to stem from the naive hypothesis that Latin is the only obstacle to a full understanding of the liturgy while in fact, it is ignorance of Sacred Scripture that is the greatest obstacle. For this reason the Council envisages more room for the Bible, and asks preachers to give homilies explaining its meaning.

"Cassandra's Curse: Louis Bouyer, the Liturgical Movement, and the Post-Conciliar Reform of the Mass," Antiphon, vol 18, no. 3 (2014), 288-89.

[Too lazy to look for a respectable format for the endnote.]

Professor Pepino has lectured on Fr. Bouyer in front of an audience that probably included a few Latin traditionalists. How did they receive Fr. Bouyer?